|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 8, 2007 17:52:39 GMT 1
Just started removing the old anti foul from Miss Ellie ( 21ft Debutante ) and I've found that underneath , running from bow to stern there is a layer of grp at the vee of the hull , up each side by about 8 inches which is about 1 inch at the bows . Below the waterline I've found areas that are damp behind the grp which isn't good but the ply is okay at the moment . Is this grp strip normal ? and any advice on what to do about it not adhering please
|
|
|
Post by petecooper on Apr 8, 2007 18:42:28 GMT 1
Some plywood boats, notably the Mirror dinghy, had a ribbon of glass tape laid over the external joints/corners - perhaps that is what this is? I thought that if the plywood was damp behind the grp this might indicate potential problems? My temptation would be to try and remove the grp strip and assess the wood underneath and at least get it dried out. Refititng the strip would then be easy, but only once the wood underneath is sound. Sorry, thoughts from someone with no woodworking skills powered by a bottle of red wine!
|
|
|
Post by jimbuoy on Apr 8, 2007 19:20:36 GMT 1
Some plywood boats, notably the Mirror dinghy, had a ribbon of glass tape laid over the external joints/corners - perhaps that is what this is? I thought that if the plywood was damp behind the grp this might indicate potential problems? My temptation would be to try and remove the grp strip and assess the wood underneath and at least get it dried out. Refititng the strip would then be easy, but only once the wood underneath is sound. Sorry, thoughts from someone with no woodworking skills powered by a bottle of red wine! I'd agree.......... sounds like typical tape and stitch construction. Any that is no longer stuck needs grinding off. The of the wood is sound replace it. Google for tape and stitch. Jim
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 8, 2007 19:30:11 GMT 1
Some plywood boats, notably the Mirror dinghy, had a ribbon of glass tape laid over the external joints/corners - perhaps that is what this is? I thought that if the plywood was damp behind the grp this might indicate potential problems? My temptation would be to try and remove the grp strip and assess the wood underneath and at least get it dried out. Refititng the strip would then be easy, but only once the wood underneath is sound. Sorry, thoughts from someone with no woodworking skills powered by a bottle of red wine! Thanks for that Pete , sounds about right I think , and others have suggested replacing it with epoxy and tape so a bit more work than expected
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 8, 2007 19:33:09 GMT 1
I'd agree.......... sounds like typical tape and stitch construction. Any that is no longer stuck needs grinding off. The of the wood is sound replace it. Google for tape and stitch.
Jim[/quote]
One thing that's confusing me is that it doesn't seem to need grinding to get it off , it comes away in my hand
and I'll check out the tape and stitch thing too
|
|
|
Post by Ken.P. on Apr 9, 2007 8:04:25 GMT 1
My guess would be that the GRP is original. She was built to take the ground, so some protection for the ply keel might be a good idea. The damp is probably from leaks letting rainwater inside (hard to find an old boat that's completely dry).
Grind off the GRP where it's not stuck, leave it on where it is stuck.
Might have to get boat inside to dry her out properly, or get a good sheet over her(but would need to be long enough to stop water running down the hull). Once the wood is dry, repair grp from the outside (but stick back on with epoxy, not the polyester stuff from Halfords), epoxy from inside (if you can get to it.....), then paint again.....
Might not be back in the water quite as quick as we hoped......
|
|
andys
Newbie... lots of fenders please
Posts: 10
|
Post by andys on Apr 9, 2007 8:10:14 GMT 1
If fibreglass is not attached it is a real problem! You will not be able to get it to stick again, and if it is damp underneath you are best to take it off and start again. You may not have a problem with it at the moment, but if it stays damp behind, it will start to rot! This strip may have been put on to try and solve a problem, but it is not uncommon for fibreglass strips to be used on wooden boats! Best when you have stripped off paint to coat the hull with epoxy and then put right any fibre repairs. Chemicals Ltd in Liverpool do a stripper that you can paint on and pressure wash off, when cleaned off with vinegar and water leaves a cleaned hull ready for painting! You can buy it locally from vrs! Andy
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 9, 2007 11:56:16 GMT 1
My guess would be that the GRP is original. She was built to take the ground, so some protection for the ply keel might be a good idea. The damp is probably from leaks letting rainwater inside (hard to find an old boat that's completely dry). Grind off the GRP where it's not stuck, leave it on where it is stuck. Might have to get boat inside to dry her out properly, or get a good sheet over her(but would need to be long enough to stop water running down the hull). Once the wood is dry, repair grp from the outside (but stick back on with epoxy, not the polyester stuff from Halfords), epoxy from inside (if you can get to it.....), then paint again..... Might not be back in the water quite as quick as we hoped...... Yep , I think we'll have to definately delay the relaunch
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 9, 2007 11:59:52 GMT 1
If fibreglass is not attached it is a real problem! You will not be able to get it to stick again, and if it is damp underneath you are best to take it off and start again. You may not have a problem with it at the moment, but if it stays damp behind, it will start to rot! This strip may have been put on to try and solve a problem, but it is not uncommon for fibreglass strips to be used on wooden boats! Best when you have stripped off paint to coat the hull with epoxy and then put right any fibre repairs. Chemicals Ltd in Liverpool do a stripper that you can paint on and pressure wash off, when cleaned off with vinegar and water leaves a cleaned hull ready for painting! You can buy it locally from vrs! Andy Hi Andy , I've started to remove it but I'm not keen on chemicals so it's going to be a bit of hard work for a while , looking forward to some lessons hopefully in the not too distant future
|
|
|
Post by NigeL on Apr 9, 2007 12:53:02 GMT 1
If fibreglass is not attached it is a real problem! You will not be able to get it to stick again, and if it is damp underneath you are best to take it off and start again. You may not have a problem with it at the moment, but if it stays damp behind, it will start to rot! This strip may have been put on to try and solve a problem, but it is not uncommon for fibreglass strips to be used on wooden boats! Best when you have stripped off paint to coat the hull with epoxy and then put right any fibre repairs. Chemicals Ltd in Liverpool do a stripper that you can paint on and pressure wash off, when cleaned off with vinegar and water leaves a cleaned hull ready for painting! You can buy it locally from vrs! Andy Hi Andy , I've started to remove it but I'm not keen on chemicals so it's going to be a bit of hard work for a while , looking forward to some lessons hopefully in the not too distant future Dave ... you said that some areas can peel back ? That is not unusual ... A guy I helped with a Dunkirk Little Ship - he sheathed the whole hull in West System Epoxy and thin cloth. Some "erberts" set fire to boats in the yard and his just finished job was scorched ... So we had to set to removing the just applied cured West system. With heat gun - it actually softened enough to peel it off like orange peel. I read the "other sides bumf" and sorry some of it is garden path stuff. Debs as far as I know were not built with GRP laid over joints. They were Cascamite build if I remember rightly with copper fastenings - Cascamite and GRP - the two are not compatible. Cascamite has no give in it ... GRP does. You should with care - expecially if you can get to a sheltered area out of any wind ... be able to heat the GRP strip and pull it away .. Epoxy or Polyester. Given you say sopme is coming away ... I would hazard a guess Polyester has been used. Smell it ? If it's got that acetic acid smell its Poly ... if literally no smell - likely epoxy. Get the strip off ... then let if breathe ... the dampness has probably come through cracks or pores in the paint and via the no adhering grp. Plus it's common to take up water from internal. A Silhouette I surveyed years ago - rainwater had got in ... I could detect it outside with the meter !! even though the owner had dried her out after it happened 3 yrs previous. Once it's had chance to breathe and dry out ... get your friendly Swiss Army Knife and start prodding ... looking for soft spots. If you do find soft spots or water damaged ply - then unfortunately it's panel replacements ... splicing / scarfing in is not easy and also not a full remedy IMHO. I would also hazard a guess that it has been aplied later in life for a reason ... so the job is to find out why ... is it failed joint ? Is it tired ply ? Was it done as a precaution ... In any sense - I would be inclined to replace it with new grp strip. So where to get it ... ? You need to look in Yellow Pages ... let the fingers do the walking ... and find nearest GRP supplies ... Or go for West Systems (Gudgeon Brothers). Talk to them as to best solution... they know more about application than average forum bod ! My feeling would be they would advocate a light-medium tape with an epoxy that is quite thin and slow setting - to ensure full wetting out of the tape and adhesion to the ply. Remember what I said about the DLS job I highlighted earlier - the resin does not soak in that much to stop it coming away later ! But you can increase it's hold by pre-coating and soaking into the ply before glassing up ... (A trick carefully applied ... epoxy will thin considerably with application of a heat gun and soaks in like water ... BUT beware that you don't a) overcook the resin ... and b) it speeds up setting seriously.) That initial resin without glass will give a footing that subsequent resin will grabe to ... but you must lay up before it sets too much and forms the air induced layer that reduces adhesion between layers. Best is when each layer is still tacky - so they "co-alesce". Final application is epoxy laden micro-balloons to fair the edge in ... this is sandable and will remove that ridge at start of the tape .... It's a horrible job ... but if done well will reward you with years of reliable joint and you'll be proud of the achievement !!
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 9, 2007 22:47:32 GMT 1
Thanks for that Nigel , luckily it seems that I've got local areas affected only and although damp the ply doesn't seem to be soft
|
|
|
Post by NigeL on Apr 10, 2007 7:15:21 GMT 1
Thanks for that Nigel , luckily it seems that I've got local areas affected only and although damp the ply doesn't seem to be soft Seems boats come in 2 forms ... those that fall into place and need limited work to bring back to glory ...... or right pigs that need full blown shipwright job !! Hopefully you are falling into first category ! Before anyone shouts at me for a very "biased" personal version of GRP and Ply etc. - I am not an expert and open for anyone to show me where wrong etc. In this game we all learn as we go on ... Will be nice to visit your place later Dave and enjoy having a sail on her ... long time since I lee-railed a Deb !!
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 10, 2007 13:54:11 GMT 1
Still hoping to get her back in this side of summer and all are welcome to join me , though not all at the same time methinks hehe
|
|
|
Post by Bendyone on Apr 10, 2007 14:36:43 GMT 1
Still hoping to get her back in this side of summer and all are welcome to join me , though not all at the same time methinks hehe Bring your own life jackets methinks ;D Perhaps Pete could do a risk assessment jut to make sure
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 10, 2007 20:01:24 GMT 1
Life jackets ?? in the Wash ?? We just tread water till the tide goes out then walk home hehe
|
|
|
Post by Ken.P. on Apr 10, 2007 20:30:52 GMT 1
We tread water if we can find some deep enough!
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 10, 2007 22:39:03 GMT 1
Don't need echo sounders , we use a boat hook
|
|
|
Post by searush on Apr 16, 2007 23:26:00 GMT 1
That's what I like! Where advice to people falling overboard is "Just stand up & wave, and we'll pop back to pick you up!"
Went out on an Everglades Air boat ride last year. Guy stops in the middle of a lake & suggests we try putting a hand in the water. Everyone's first thought is of the alligators we had recently flashed past, then you think - no, they wouldn't suggest it if it was really that dangerous. Turns out the water is only about 2" deep! Didn't check the depth of the underlying mud tho'.
|
|
|
Post by shipscat on Apr 17, 2007 0:30:28 GMT 1
He didn't tell yer about the wide variety of water snakes that inhabit the Everglades then and quite happy in 2" of water . John
|
|
|
Post by trevera25 on Apr 17, 2007 1:34:56 GMT 1
Thankfully round here we don't get too many snakes
|
|