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Post by NigeL on May 8, 2007 5:14:12 GMT 1
I bought thigh straps for my XM Inflatable life-jackets ... an item that I think should be standard with all inflatable jackets. But aren't they awful !! When putting the jacket on ... one strap fell of ............ once on - passed strap round and clipped as per instructions ... leant fwd and strap dropped down thighs ... stood up YIKES ! Had to hand-wriggle the strap back up the leg to place again. Surely there has to be a better way ? And at £9 a throw for a set - its diabolical theft ! My thoughts are ..... Instead of having a combined loop and clip in one .... passed over front part of waist belt each side ... Maybe its better to divide each strap into two. That is - remove the strap socket from the strap. Have a small length of strap with the socket and remainder as a long strap with the strap plug. Stitch the two long straps as one in a slight V to the rear vertical webbing of the jacket. So that they can pass from back - between legs and to front. The strap sockets to be stitched to the webbing loops on inside of front lower jacket cover .... hanging down ready for the strap clips from back. That way you have straps that a) don't fall off when donning the jacket, b) don't slip down your legs when moving about, c) the straps create a V so that you can still do certain things without causing "injury"  .... Ok it's a little more work that the normal recc'd way to fit ... but I think better ... What does panel think ? |
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Post by malcb on May 8, 2007 7:03:58 GMT 1
I tried them and found the same thing, couldn't stand up in a hurry, so I modified them and now just have a single crutch strap to help prevent the front of the LJ rising.
I think they would work as thigh straps if they came from a single point at the back and split into two (or two separate straps) which were then fixed at the front. Which is roughly the way you suggest.
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Post by NigeL on May 8, 2007 7:22:40 GMT 1
I tried them and found the same thing, couldn't stand up in a hurry, so I modified them and now just have a single crutch strap to help prevent the front of the LJ rising. I think they would work as thigh straps if they came from a single point at the back and split into two (or two separate straps) which were then fixed at the front. Which is roughly the way you suggest. Not only that ..... but even me - a "portly" shape ... I have a yard and 1/2 of spare web strap hanging around my knees from them !! I shall be cutting and sewing tonight ! I'm glad I'm not the only one then ... I kept thinking that I must have done something wrong ... surely it cannot be right. But checked instructions again ... |
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Post by NigeL on May 8, 2007 7:24:07 GMT 1
Interested to know from our School principal - what he thinks or whether any mods carried out ?
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Post by Ken.P. on May 8, 2007 7:27:47 GMT 1
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Post by NigeL on May 8, 2007 7:36:48 GMT 1
Point taken - but the straps here are purely to stop the jacket riding up and "drowning" you by having face submerged. The actual weight of body is on the jacket webbing. My only concern with a single strap front to back is whether its to one side or central - could be a might Soprano for some !! I prefer to keep my semi-bass voice ! So 2 straps creating a V is my preference ! |
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Post by shipscat on May 8, 2007 10:33:06 GMT 1
They seem to be very much a Brit, and maybe European, fad as they are not seen much anywhere else (never ever seen any myself and have not seen them listed in chandleries here, Oz or USA - they do not seem to be listed by the major non Brit LSA manufacturers either) whereas our friends on XXX seem to feel a need for them in case they have to survive for 5 minutes in the waters of the Solent.
Their carriage is mandatory for ISAF Special Regulation Category 0 race boats tho' which are race boats in trans-oceanic races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance; so lets most of us out even if we were circumnavigating (expect Category 1 for that).
In my view a properly fitting and properly worn life jacket should not need them in the circumstance most of us are ever likely to face and ours certainly do not with their integral harness strap quite close under the armpits (I noticed in one of Als' photos that his own jacket was properly nipped up but one of the other crew facing the camera's one is quite loose). Difficult for me to comment on the fitting of them point as in all my travels I have never seen any to investigate that, but had always imagined that with a skirted heavy wet weather jacket for offshore the straps would be just a pain.
By the time one has all the clothing and boots on in heavy conditions, together with face protection, flares, lights, personal EPIRB, waterproof VHF, knives, etc, etc as some say I am surprised people can move let alone float. Was a very interesting article on survival in the water in Yachting Monthly a couple of years back by a very knowledgable guy who was found adrift at night, by pure luck, by a helicopter after earlier going overboard offshore (think was in a Sydney Hobart from memory) - he did not mention thigh straps and was not wearing them in the photo of him in his recommended kit. I personally would not bother with them either.
John
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Post by NigeL on May 8, 2007 10:55:26 GMT 1
I can only speak from my experience of Survival Course in English Channel .... (outer limits of Plymouth Sound in March !) We had standard Kapok MN jackets as supplied to many fleets around the world .... I jumped in the water in the prescribed manner - arms crossed firmly across the chest holding the jacket the the body etc. Even though it was secure and correctly fitted it did try to ride and I am sure if I was not crossed arms - it would have succeeded in riding up enough to be a problem. We did have one guy who it rode up - luckily we all saw and got him into liferaft as quick as possible.
It is fact that a lifejacket will ride up given a sufficient high jump into the water ... and in case of a poorly fitted jacket - which I think the straps are really trying to counter - even waiting till IN the water before pulling cord / auto inflate will have a riding up situation in sufficient movement sea.
I agree that with a full foul weather gear on - the straps are going to be a real pain ... and will likely lead to non-use of the straps - probably in the very conditions that they are most called for !
I believe in the straps - based on personal experience ..... but also acknowledge the fact that Airline LJ's as given to passengers are not so equipped !
Anyway ---- my sewing kit will come out tonight to sort into a much more workable arrangement !
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Post by shipscat on May 8, 2007 11:46:47 GMT 1
I think most people who have not spent much time in and out of the water in lifejackets get a real surprise as to how low one floats and as to the the strange feeling of the jacket wanting to ride up (which it has to do to give flotation of course).
Is not something that has worried me and probably comes about from being an ex tippy type dinghy racing sailer and getting to spend many hours in the water with life jackets of various types on. Never had one threaten to ride up off me and that even includes "old fashioned" primative stuffed ones from around 45 years ago.
Jumping in the water from a height introduces a new matter but should never be an issue from a pleasure yacht.
Has been alot of soul searching here over the years due to numbers of drownings in a population where water sports have a very high take up (that being so most drownings are not boat related) including revisits as to whether wearing of jackets should be compulsory or not on smaller vessels ("smaller" is normally under 6 or 7m in the legislation of the few countries where where wearing is mandatory).
For some years here the carriage of jackets has been mandatory but the decision to wear is the skippers then the individuals and that is extremely rarely invoked on decked vessels (very, very rare to see lifejackets worn on any vessel over around 25-28 footish and also very, very rare for drownings to occur from such sized vessels).
So after all that the general view here is that education is the best approach as to circumstances when appropriate to wear them such as to do with size and type of boat, seas, bar crossings, etc (we even have TV ad's doing that in summer) but the main thrust is actually believed to be and the thrust is that the best protection is for people to be confident in the water and able to swim.
I have a friend who was washed out the back of a transomless shallow cockpit race boat in an ocean race with the boat doing 15 knots - fortunately he was tethered and was hauled back in, that experience hinting as to the best answer.
John
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Post by NigeL on May 8, 2007 12:32:57 GMT 1
I agree with you John ... and in fact will add something that is controversial ....
In some cases the LJ issue will prolong life and slow down inevitable consequences ... of death ... a lingering matter that I for one would not want.
Bit like a guy I knew who burned to death on end of breathing app. line passed through a porthole.
Anyway - agreed that jumping of a pleasure yacht shouldn't cause ride up of the LJ ... but as you noted on some piccies - they are not always buckled up correctly ...
One thing that annoys me - Movies often show people jumping of ships etc. holding a LJ in one hand ... later them swimming around with it on. I would love to know who could do that ... a) keep hold of such an item after jumping in of a ship and even if they could ... b) actually get it on and strapped up in the water !!
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Post by shipscat on May 8, 2007 13:00:29 GMT 1
There was a sad case here just a fortnight or so ago. Family were out on 7.3m mobo which they had just bought and overnighting at an offshore island. Two kids, one 8 yrs and one younger, and 4 adults on board when kids noticed water rising in the boat.
The boat had an open backed cabin and parents put kids in there while they tried to drive the boat to the shore in the dark. Boat suddenly started going down stern first as it lost buoyancy (as boats with drives at stern very prone to do) and parents could not get the two kids out of the cabin against the water flow 'cos of the buoyancy of the lifejackets so while all the adults survived swimming ashore the 2 kids drowned and were recovered from the boat the next day.
Very sad seeing the parents stating that they realised that they did the wrong thing by not keeping the kids out in the open in the threatened boat.
John
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Post by mirelle on May 8, 2007 14:44:08 GMT 1
Need a definition of terms I think.
Are thigh straps different to crotch straps?
I certainly do believe in the latter; we have mostly Crewsaver lifejackets with one XM junior one for my 12 year old son. The Crewsaver jackets have twin straps, the XM has a single strap.
A little experiment in the local swimming pool convinced me instantly in favour of always using them.
The MAIB report on the loss of the yacht that may have collided with the ferry Pride of Bilbao remarks on the difference in survival times of the two crew members without them (c. 2 hours) vs the crew member with them (c. 12 hours)
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Post by NigeL on May 8, 2007 19:50:54 GMT 1
Need a definition of terms I think. Are thigh straps different to crotch straps? I certainly do believe in the latter; we have mostly Crewsaver lifejackets with one XM junior one for my 12 year old son. The Crewsaver jackets have twin straps, the XM has a single strap. A little experiment in the local swimming pool convinced me instantly in favour of always using them. The MAIB report on the loss of the yacht that may have collided with the ferry Pride of Bilbao remarks on the difference in survival times of the two crew members without them (c. 2 hours) vs the crew member with them (c. 12 hours) Thigh straps .... they are a loop of web that goes from front jacket belt round top of leg and clips back at that same front point .. there is one either side of front of jacket to keep both sections of jacket down using both leg tops ... Instructions here :  Original design XM idea ... loop from front belt round top of leg :  My redesign ... having strap come from rear webbing under crotch to snap buckle at front :  |
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Post by mirelle on May 8, 2007 22:49:31 GMT 1
Ah.
Redesign looks like Crewsaver crotch straps - which work well.
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Post by NigeL on May 9, 2007 7:33:26 GMT 1
Ah. Redesign looks like Crewsaver crotch straps - which work well. The only drawback with my redesign is that you cannot remove the strap to save having it hanging around to trip over. The original - has a loop that slips over the buckle - allowing you choose to have or not. I've completed one LJ ... donned and it works well. Next - I shall look close and see if any way round the above point. If not - same will be done. I understand Johns point about them not fitted etc. but feel that any addition to any safety item that improves or assists in making the item better in event of poor fitting etc. has to be good. How many times do you see people with these on and think - yeh !! nice and slack for comfort, naff all use in real emergency !  |
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Post by malcb on May 9, 2007 7:48:54 GMT 1
the modificaton you've made is essentially how I altered mine to at least give some effect. We have some LJ's in the MVS which only have a single crotch strap. I've always found them fairly comfortable.
As an aside, before I left France, I inflated my LJ in the swimming pool, the bottle was corroded a bit and needed replacing. I was pleased with the way it did support me even without any thigh or crotch straps, but the harness was properly adjusted.
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Post by NigeL on May 9, 2007 13:45:09 GMT 1
the modificaton you've made is essentially how I altered mine to at least give some effect. We have some LJ's in the MVS which only have a single crotch strap. I've always found them fairly comfortable. As an aside, before I left France, I inflated my LJ in the swimming pool, the bottle was corroded a bit and needed replacing. I was pleased with the way it did support me even without any thigh or crotch straps, but the harness was properly adjusted. Thats the "crux" of the matter I think - "properly adjusted". I know that Svet when I've adjusted hers to correct - she complains its not so comfortable ... at least now some leeway is there. A point that some miss is that when worn over light gear ... namely T-shirt etc. - the LJ will often have less tendency to ride up ... but once you start donning extra layers to pad out for warmth etc. - you can increase the ride up risk by clothing moving and taking jacket with it - especially synthetic clothing that is naturally "non-clingy" .... I did wonder if a velcro solution may be possible ? For being able to attach / remove straps as wished ... Looked at single attachment at rear and a V of two straps to front ... But decided in end not to create a possible tangle or twist in a V that would be decidely uncomfortable ... and also Velcro is fine until the "wooly" part gets worn ... I want it to hold ... |
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Post by malcb on May 9, 2007 14:18:30 GMT 1
Velcro.
Could use the heavy duty stuff. I've even used that to fix my Sat Nav bracket in the car to the dash with that. Also I use it on the RIB's to attach safety knoves and GPS receivers. They get wet there. Sticks like the proverbial.
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Post by NigeL on May 9, 2007 15:28:24 GMT 1
Velcro. Could use the heavy duty stuff. I've even used that to fix my Sat Nav bracket in the car to the dash with that. Also I use it on the RIB's to attach safety knoves and GPS receivers. They get wet there. Sticks like the proverbial. I have some HD discs of Velcro ... use them on Tractor and in Truck .... for mobile phones. One phone it used to pull the battery off the back !! Since getting my camera phone of course had to stop using it ! Must say that local shop has the sew on variety ... mmmmmmmmm have a think on this ... |
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