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Post by ggt on Nov 21, 2007 13:16:07 GMT 1
An idle question from a non-sailing person but how far do people go (or have people gone) in small 'pocket' yachts of the sort of 18-20ft trailer-sailer variety (Seawytch etc.)?
I know you can go a very long way in any boat given suitable conditions, skill, luck, bravado and gritted teeth. I know people cross oceans in Wayfarers, do the channel in a Mirror and such like... but that's not the question; I'm interested in more typical leisure use.
These boats seem affordable, seaworthy and have space and accommodation, berths, galleys, heating and things that I can see my motor boat is a bit lacking... but I rarely see them hopping from port to port around the coast or doing much more than people I know with open boats like Drascombes, Wayfarers and the like (and the latter often seem to 'go for a sail' usually within a harbour or sheltered area).
Most sailors I see who actually get about or go cruising for days at a time seem to have much bigger boats.
So are these just starter boats that you rapidly outgrow?
Or that the world has decided are too small and outmoded?
Do they fall awkwardly between a fun local sailing dinghy or an actual cruising yacht?
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Post by mirelle on Nov 21, 2007 13:52:08 GMT 1
Well, I can answer for myself.
Before I bought Mirelle I owned Mytica, an 18ft wooden deep keeled yacht, of the type commonly called two and half tonners (similar to a Blackwater sloop, a two and half ton Hillyard, Johnson and Jago, etc).
She was most certainly not a trailer sailer; she drew three feet with a big lump of iron outside ballast, but she was all of 18 feet long and six feet six inches wide.
I got to Holland in her from Walton-on-Naze, and back, and into everywhere between Ramsgate and Aldeburgh.
Ned and Kate bought her and took her to Falmouth and back.
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Post by faya on Nov 21, 2007 13:59:09 GMT 1
Blimey - that was quite a step from 18' to Mirelle!
If you include the coribee in your description of pocket yachts, they seem to be the small boat of choice for youngsters (and no doubt some not so young) to cut there long distance teeth in. These include round Britain, trans Atlantic's, live-aboard cruising etc.
The first boat that I had use of was a leisure 17 (my fathers boat) and that went cross channel.
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Post by petecooper on Nov 21, 2007 14:05:03 GMT 1
I think it really depends on what level of comfort you want. Three of us once spent a long weekend on my Hunter Europa - it was cosy, but OK. As has been discussed many times on various forums, nowadays people start in things a lot bigger with much more accomodation. In about 1967 my dad bought a Trotter MK 2 from Marine Plastics in Grimsby. We kept her on the Ancholme, and I always remember someone from a 'larger' boat, 28 foot I think, coming aboard and saying 'Do all four of you sleep in that'! Well yes we did and had many fantastic times on her. Sorry, I digress, but my point is that the choice of boat is more commonly governed by comfort and that small yachts like the Hunter Europa can be incredibly seaworthy as demonstrated by David Blagden in Willing Griffin in 1979.
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Post by mirelle on Nov 21, 2007 14:06:38 GMT 1
I think cruising boats have got a lot bigger over my years of messing about in boats.
If you look at older marinas they are laid out for 27-32 footers.
Now most boats seem to be 40ft.
Certainly when I started a Twister (28ft) was a big boat - the sort of boat that people traded up to, having worked through the small stuff, perhaps via a Folkboat, and kept till they hung their boots up.
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Post by ggt on Nov 21, 2007 14:29:36 GMT 1
Thanks for the thoughts.
I didn't really mean trailer-sailer specifically so Mirelle's Mytica more than counts, seems to really answer the question and sounds tremendous fun.
Coribees count as well; I recall Katie Miller put in here going round Britain in one last year aged just 18 or 19 and I'm still hugely envious.
So it looks like people really just want more comfort and space than they used to and that if you're prepared to do without these for a few days at a time, you could get a lot of use and a lot of fun for not much outlay.
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nealb
Just Left Harbour
Posts: 20
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Post by nealb on Nov 21, 2007 14:36:12 GMT 1
From the early 60's, my Dad kept his 20 foot Hurley Felicity ('Minx') at Hullbridge. She was considered a reasonably big boat at the club then: other popular designs were the Lysander, YM Senior, Silhouette, Alacrity etc.
When we ventured up through the moorings at Fambridge, I used to dream of one day being able to buy one of the three Halcyon 27s that were moored just off the yacht station. Now they were seriously BIG!
However, as you say, the smaller boats got very regular use, mostly by young families like ours, exploring all around the East Coast, with annual holidays in Calais, Ostend, Flushing etc.
It seems to me that the modern yachting scene, with bigger boats, better gear, TVs, DVDs, etc has lost a lot of this mystical, gentle style of cruising (I'd not want to be without my modern clothing or gps, but, it would nice to remove, say, half the marinas!).
Right, this sad old git is now going to shut up!
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Post by olivepage on Nov 21, 2007 14:48:23 GMT 1
A chap called Alistair Buchan did an Atlantic circuit in a 20ft Hurley a few years ago. He had done a number of trips to Holland and Germany in the same boat.
If you're interested he wrote a book about his experiences. I used to moor near him in Hartlepool but haven't seen him for ages.
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Post by petecooper on Nov 21, 2007 16:05:26 GMT 1
When we ventured up through the moorings at Fambridge, I used to dream of one day being able to buy one of the three Halcyon 27s that were moored just off the yacht station. Now they were seriously BIG! By an odd coincidence my dad bought a Halcyon 27 in 1969 to replace our Trotter that I mentioned above. We kept her in Dunbar harbour on the East coast of Scotland and she was for a few years the largest boat in the club.
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Post by NigeL on Nov 21, 2007 16:16:42 GMT 1
I find it strange that magazines, lot of "modern" yotties advocate the bigger boats, but we have various races / regatta's, even ocean stuff like Jester Challenge, Mini Transats etc. that all had origins in those far of days of smaller boats.
Yachting World did an article years ago illustrating how far small boats went compared to larger.
I can remember in Fareham Club - long before it added pontoons etc. (it used to be two army landing craft with decks added and a walkway bridge down to them from back of clubhouse) one the members finally received his Centaur. He invited all to a party at the Club and moored it alongside the pontoon for the evening / night to allow us all to view this HUGE boat ! Club at that time was made up of Kestrels, Vivacities, Alacrities, Debutantes ... even our boat was BIG... a Snapdragon 23 lift keel job ...
Our previous boat to the Snappie was a Hilyard 2.5 tonner two berth and limited headroom. But we used to go all over south coast in it .. Mum, Dad and I - even with Steve (brother). We used to sleep on the floor between the two berths that Mum and Dad had.
I can't help feeling that a bit of the fun and make do has gone out of it now .. Nostalgia ? Why not !
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nealb
Just Left Harbour
Posts: 20
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Post by nealb on Nov 21, 2007 16:25:49 GMT 1
[/quote]
By an odd coincidence my dad bought a Halcyon 27 in 1969 to replace our Trotter that I mentioned above. We kept her in Dunbar harbour on the East coast of Scotland and she was for a few years the largest boat in the club.[/quote]
I did eventually realise my dream, when I bought a 1969 built Halcyon 27 in 1992. She was called 'Barbarella' when we bought her, but we rapidly changed her name to 'Landfall' (the visions of a nubile Jane Fonda would have been just too distracting).
I spent a fortune on my dream boat: new sails, running and standing rigging, new Sailspar furler, engine rebuilt by Sabb, preventative epoxy treatment, extensive teak interior refit, new upholstery, new cooker.....phew!
But what a boat! Great looks and very powerful performance.
Strange how relative size is, though. In the 60's, the H27s seemed like huge sailing machines. By the nineties (by which time I'd owned a Moody 33) 'Landfall' seemed 'compact' to say the least.
I often regret selling that boat.
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Post by kilter on Nov 22, 2007 10:15:04 GMT 1
A chap called Alistair Buchan did an Atlantic circuit in a 20ft Hurley a few years ago. He had done a number of trips to Holland and Germany in the same boat. If you're interested he wrote a book about his experiences. I used to moor near him in Hartlepool but haven't seen him for ages. I met him in St Martin while he was doing that trip. Made our 33 footer look enormous by comparison! His was not the smallest though. We met an English bloke in Barbados who'd crossed in a 19' Caprice. No electrics, home made wind vane, navigation by sextant, he was totally chuffed!
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Post by martinschulz on Nov 22, 2007 11:04:27 GMT 1
No electrics, home made wind vane, navigation by sextant, he was totally chuffed! I am not surprised. I mean very often we seem to forget the main reason why we are owning sailing boats. We definitely don't own sailing boats to: - get from place A to place B as fast as possible - to own some space as comfy as at home - to sit in a marina drinking coffee So, when coming down to earth there is only one reason to own a sailing boat. To sail and then it doesn't matter how fast or how comfortable - the way is the goal.
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Post by roach1948 on Nov 22, 2007 12:30:02 GMT 1
Having a tabloid cruiser myself, I used to think this. My theory is that smaller yachts are less assuming, you notice then less in ports. I have to say though, that when on my September cruise, there were many small yachts that I kept on bumbing into in different anchorages. I think one notices other cruising boats more accutely when one is cruising oneself.
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Post by ggt on Nov 22, 2007 14:10:01 GMT 1
My theory is that smaller yachts are less assuming, you notice then less in ports.... I think one notices other cruising boats more accutely when one is cruising oneself. Yes, you may be right and I was only going on an impression rather than any detailed survey of visiting boats. It also presumably matters where you ask... there's far more scope for weekending, overnighting and pottering on some parts of the coast than in others. What I'm pleased about is that no-one has said that small yachts are dull or impractical or dangerous or were only fine back in those distant, simpler times because the waves were smaller then. Actually, everyone seems to quite like them...
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Post by NigeL on Nov 22, 2007 16:25:19 GMT 1
Small boats are only scorned IMHO by those who don't really understand boating or its history / appeal.
How often do you see small boats in with big boats all having a good time, no-one really makes trouble over it ... odd joke, stab remark maybe - but boats are boats.
The other thing as well is small boats often command respect from bigger guys when they start to realise how far they came etc.
When I was across in Sweden - I was of course fyling the Red Ensign ... every day I was asked about the trip over - they seemed disappointed when I said I hadn't sailed from UK - BUT when they found out I had sailed across Baltic the respect came back ... even though their boats were bigger, most admitted they didn't do similar.
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Post by bajansailor on Nov 22, 2007 17:22:52 GMT 1
Some pals of mine (2 brothers) had a Kingfisher 20 Plus (which was I think 22' overall) which they acquired in the mid 80's for GBP 2,000 and for the next 5 years or so they had a grand time with her (this was Othona - does anybody recognise her?).
They spent just about every summer weekend and holiday on her, and I often joined them - in fact on one 2 week summer cruise there were 5 of us for the first week (I was the 5th), during which we clocked up an impressive mileage (ok, pub crawl by sea) from Southampton to Poole (from where I hopped on the train back to Southampton, as I had to go back to work). And as I was the smallest of the five, my bunk was on the floor in the 'main cabin' (yes, there was a seperate heads and a forecabin all in 22').
I think they sold her for about 2 grand, same as what they bought her for, and then moved up to what was then regarded as an enormous Colvic 26 (Soubrette) which they kept at Kemps on the Itchen in Southampton.
And now, one brother has got married, swallowed the anchor, and has a couple of little kids, while the other found a nice lady, and they bought a Vancouver 32 and took off for the Med 5 years ago, where they still are.
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Post by searush on Nov 22, 2007 23:38:35 GMT 1
Shane Acton (over 6' tall & bulky frame too) famously went round the world in Shrimpy, 18' IIRC and even managed to collect an equally statuesque blonde Swedish girl as a sailing companion for at least part of the trip.
Met two guys in Scotland with a Drascombe coaster each who cruised all around Skye area together. Also travelled from Crinan to Puldhobrain (Spelling?) with a guy in a plywood Bell Seagull. I went to Oban & L Etive, I think he went further!
Do what you enjoy, long distance isn't a problem if you plan your trip, carry enough food/gear and don't mind taking a little longer. But many people never go more than an hour or two's sail from their moorings - regardless of size of boat. You picks yer boat & goes where you like!
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Post by Candide on Nov 23, 2007 0:08:04 GMT 1
Good post, Steve. My first venture into coastal sailing involved a 21' tosher gaffer in the Solent and down the Dorset coast but at the same time the comics had reports of wee boats purpose designed for ocean crossing : Sopranino and the boat that John Guzzwell built - Trekka (?). In most cases the boats were either very carefully designed or adapted. More recently, one of the comics had articles by someone with a swing keel Westerly. I read of him trailing it off to W Scotland or Anglesey and thought that maybe opting for a deep, displacement boat might not have been the best choice. I keep an eye out for Guzzwell's book - anybody seen a copy ?
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Post by searush on Nov 23, 2007 0:21:27 GMT 1
Trekka - I've read it, (library copy) but it is not yet a part of my own library. It was pretty good too. I do have both of Shane Acton's books (they are worth a fortune now) - also a good read.
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